Interview with Suzanne Flynn, Professor of Foreign Languages and Linguistics, MIT Department of Linguistics and Philosophy
On the eighth floor of MIT’s Stata Center—structurally beautiful but difficult to navigate—sits the university’s department of linguistics. This is one of MIT’s most famous and prolific departments; its professors and researchers study a variety of different topics related to language. The eighth floor was fascinating: when I stepped off the elevator, an assistant asked me if I was looking for “the room” wherein, apparently, there was a study on native Portuguese speakers taking place.
Down the hall from “the room” is Professor Suzanne Flynn’s office. Her research focuses on bilingualism and second language acquisition in children and adults. I sat down with her on a sunny April afternoon to talk about bilingualism, language acquisition, language education, and the political factors that influence them.
As we talked about our common experiences with multilingualism and our shared interest in the political factors that influence language, it became clear that Flynn is deeply excited by these topics and is very passionate about her research into it. She told me, “I’ve always been driven by bilingualism and trying to understand how it is that someone has multiple languages in their head.” Indeed, she has studied bilingualism in depth: how it works, how we become bilingual (i.e. what factors in the school, home, or culture lead to bilingualism), and how it affects the process of learning more languages.
Flynn did not start as an academic. She came to the topics of bilingualism and language acquisition by teaching in a bilingual Spanish-English program in Puerto Rico and later, in the Boston public school system. After this teaching experience, she went on to get her masters in linguistics at Cornell, with a focus on second-language acquisition. Since then, the scope of her research has expanded and changed, just as the theory of linguistics itself has.
Beyond bilingual Spanish and English speakers in the United States, Flynn has studied people who speak somewhat rare languages, like Kazakh. She has worked with people who speak at different levels (i.e. native speakers, second language learners, and beginners). She has studied people who have learned their second or third language in an assortment of different contexts—for example simultaneous Spanish-English bilinguals in the United States, native Chinese speakers learning English in the United States, and Kazakh speakers learning Russian in school.
Flynn also elaborated on the political factors that drive language education—like policy, ideology, and national identity. Obviously, language acquisition does not happen in a vacuum—who learns what language where is deeply influenced by political factors. Flynn is clearly well versed in these factors and how they affect the way in which we talk about language. She quotes the sociolinguists’ adage that “a language is a dialect with an army and a navy.” That is to say, languages have more political clout than dialects. Flynn gave the example of China—where the country’s languages are called dialects even if they are structurally very different, because it is important that the country be politically unified rather than divided by different languages. It is clear that the way that we talk about language, and even the way that we learn and understand it, is driven by political factors. Flynn is conscious of these factors, especially the way in which they influence schools and language education. She has worked extensively with Spanish-English bilingual schools in the United States and understands how policy and American national identity have influenced these.
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Professor Suzanne Flynn (SF): I started out as a bilingual teacher—Spanish-English—in Puerto Rico. I came to Boston and taught at Boston High School in the bilingual system; I taught English and Social Studies to Spanish speakers. I’ve always been driven by bilingualism and trying to understand how it is that someone has multiple languages in their head. I went to graduate school at Cornell and got a PhD in linguistics—my area of study was adult second language acquisition. I was trying to understand if there is a critical period for language acquisition—if beyond age twelve you aren’t really able to learn a new language.
At that time, the theory of linguistics was changing a lot. We were moving from a descriptive approach to language another that is represented by Chomsky, here [at MIT]—a more genitive approach that talks about language faculties and the uniqueness of language. I used that as the basis of my research in second language acquisition with adults. I also used complex syntax in very controlled studies—looking at comprehension and production in multiple languages.
The original languages that I looked at were controlled for level of proficiency were Spanish, Japanese, and Chinese. We were looking at adults learning English as a second language—the whole range, from beginners to advanced speakers. That has expanded, so now the language groups that I’ve looked at have expanded. And I’ve also moved on to look at children too, to compare children who were simultaneous bilinguals to children who were learning English as a second language seeing if, beyond the age of ten or twelve, they looked like adult speakers. What you find is that their patterns of development, of syntax, are the same—controlling for the first language.
Now I’m looking at third language acquisition. So we started out by looking at Kazakh speakers who learned Russian, who learned English… Some of them were simultaneous learners of Kazakh and Russian, we controlled for that. Basically, we were looking at Kazakh speakers in Kazakhstan who had learned Kazakh in the home. At that time—though it’s changed now—they learned Russian in the schools, because they were only taught in Russian. Then they learned English. Then we also looked at—because things had changed over time—children who were simultaneous Kazakh and Russian learning English as well, so who were learning English as a second language. So, though there are some different patterns, the general patterns of development are the same.
Now, what we’re trying to tease apart is interference from the first language. We’re trying to see what role other languages play in subsequent acquisition when you’re doing it sequentially. We have found that they can only help you. There is a traditional belief that they interfere, but they really don’t.
Alessandra Saluti (SF): So if I speak English and I’m trying to learn a second language, English can only help me?
SF: Yes, depending on the language’s properties. So we looked at Kazakh, which is an SOV language (subject object verb). Japanese, for example, is also a subject object verb language. If you compare Japanese speakers to Spanish speakers learning English, they both eventually acquire the language, but Spanish [is an] SVO (subject verb object), like Italian and French. And English [is an SVO language] too—though it used to be SOV because of its Germanic roots. And German used to be more SOV, but English switched—because it’s both a Germanic and a Romance language. English changed before Shakespeare. At that time people were trying to make English more like Latin, so you could have double negatives and triple negatives. Even though some Romance languages allow double negatives, they were trying to make English change. And [it also] became more of a written language, and literacy rates were increasing—these things helped.
So, anyway, if you look at Japanese speakers learning English, their patterns of development for the particular kinds of things I was looking at, look a lot like young children learning English.
But if you look at Spanish speakers learning English, controlling for the same properties, it looks like that they’ve been given sort of a boost. This is controlling for levels of proficiency, knowledge of the lexicon and the stimulus sentences, so there is no way that you can explain the differences in patterns other than by the differences in the properties of the language.
So when Kazakh speakers (which is an SOV language) learn Russian (which is an SVO language) their patterns of acquisition look like those of Japanese speakers learning English. But then when you look at Kazakh and Russian speakers learning English as a third language, their patterns of acquisition look like, say, Spanish speakers learning English. Some of the properties that they have represented in their brain with respect to Russian enhance their acquisition of English. This shows that what you know [in terms of language] you can use in subsequent acquisitions and your first language does not drive everything.
AS: Even if you’re switching from an SVO language to an SOV language?
SF: If you’re switching from an SOV to an SVO you’re going to have to establish most of these “branching” properties anew, like a young child.
AS: What about learning a language in school versus the home? This is the case for a lot of Spanish-speaking kids in the United States. The level of Spanish that they speak at home sometimes surpasses the level of Spanish they learn in school—unless they are enrolled in a bilingual program. So, let’s say they are fluent in the home, but at school they are taught English and outside of the home they speak English. What is the effect of that?
SF: We are actually just starting a project on that. People tend to treat them as a homogenous group, and they’re not—it all depends on how much of their first language they got in the home, when they switched, etc. What we are finding is that the lexicons differ. This is true for Spanish-speaking children in the U.S, Chinese-speaking children in the U.S… Turkish speakers in Germany… it all really depends on how much language exposure they got. But what they find with bilinguals in general, whether it’s heritage learners or not, the difference is in the lexicon. Each individual is not exposed to the exact same environments so that they know the same items in each language. So when you talk about bilingual deficits—it’s not a deficit, it’s that people learn different registers. That’s also true of dialect speakers in the U.S. So it’s a lot of things… it’s lexicon, it’s registers, but it’s not the basic language structures.
AS: Are dialects considered to be different languages?
SF: Well, Chomsky makes the claim that there is really only one human language, and that everything exists on a continuum. So he would say that one’s ability to speak another dialect is basically the same thing that underlies ones ability to speak different languages. It’s just that some dialects are closer to the home language than others.
So, for example, what they call dialects in China are really separate languages. In other places what they call language differences are really just dialect differences. So it’s a political construct: “a language is a dialect with an army and a navy.” China calls them dialects because they’re united more by a common system of writing, but many of them are structurally very different.
AS: And that’s political too. That’s one thing I’m interested in: for example how the education reforms of the Third Republic affected the dialects in France… the decrease of the dialects in France. Versus in Italy, the education reform [was not so strict]
SF: It’s very interesting to look at the history of these things. It’s the same in Spain. There are all these different languages: Catalan is different from Galician. But all of this is politically motivated. For example, the U.S. was very much a multilingual nation up until the late 1800s, and then with the “new” immigrants coming in—Italians, Irish, Greeks, all these different groups, coupled with Chinese speakers, posed a “threat.” Also, during WWI and WWII, it became somewhat un-American to speak these languages. But prior to this time, there were public schools and religious schools that were supported using public funds, where the language of instruction was not necessarily English.
AS: I also want to talk about the history of bilingual education in schools and why it’s underfunded in the United States. How much of that is political?
SF: Actually, the U.S. in some sense is more of a model these days for other countries. I used to think it was the other way around. But it’s only true the other way around with historical distinct language groups, like the Sami in Norway. But other countries are now looking to the U.S. to try to understand their waves of new immigrants.
So in the U.S. there was a lot of public funding up until the turn of the century, and a lot of religious schools. After WWII, all of that pretty much went underground. But then with the Cuban Missile Crisis in the 1960s, we had Spanish speakers coming to Florida. They were very wealthy for the most part. They wanted to maintain bilingualism, so in Coral Gables, Florida, the public school set up this two-way immersion language program. Spanish speakers were learning English, English speakers were learning Spanish. This program was a great success, and other schools wanted to replicate it.
At this time, the Civil Rights Act was passed, and there was a case where a group of parents in Chinatown in San Francisco sued the U.S. government because their children were being denied educational services. They successfully won the suit. So after that, in all school districts in the U.S. you had to—if there were more than X number of students in a language—provide services. But that meant that, since it was mandated by the federal government, that they had to take care of everybody’s needs. So the Coral Gables program became eviscerated.
Recently, there was an act in California, Colorado, and Massachusetts that said that you could only stay in a bilingual program for two years. It’s horrible because two years is not enough. Massachusetts has tried to get around a lot of that—what they have now are a lot of independent programs within the public school systems. But there is a lot of battle in Cambridge about these programs because they feel that it is not serving everyone—they feel that it’s only serving those who are on the other end of the SES scale.
AS: It’s interesting how the socioeconomic factor plays into it. Do you think that in towns where there is generally a higher level of income, there are more bilingual programs?
SF: The school systems run on the taxes of the town, so in towns that have more resources, they will be more likely to have these kinds of programs. There are a lot of these Saturday or Sunday schools where people from different immigrant communities can come to maintain their first language or the language of their parents—there is one for the Polish community here in Boston for example.
What I am seeing now, with these bilingual programs, is that even the second generation, a lot of the students want to reclaim their language. This is also because being multilingual is now considered to be more valuable. We have the heritage learners program here [at MIT] for Spanish, for Chinese, they’re trying to start one for Korean, there’s one for Arabic, Russian is being started up again. Students want to learn those languages again. Students want to get beyond what they had as a home language—because there’s only so much you can do in the home. […]
Literacy helps a lot—parents always ask me how they can help maintain their children’s language skills. I always tell them to read to their kids at night in the home language. That makes a very big difference because if you can become literate, you can self-teach in some sense.
AS: If you only become literate in your 20s, let’s say, is there a strong difference between you and people who became literate earlier on?
SF: To learn to write in any language—especially if you’re using the same kind of alphabet—helps. But you can also take a child who has been literate in English their whole lives…literacy doesn’t mean they can write well, because they’re being reinforced for things other than writing when they were growing up. That’s why MIT is constantly upping the ante in terms of writing requirements! […]
Learning the conventions of writing in any language, there are ranges for anyone—native speaker or not. Controlling of writing has to with controlling of register, of conventions. This is true for any language.
AS: Is there a big difference if you’re learning a new alphabet?
SF: There’s lots of variation in skills, but the earlier the better for learning a new alphabet. It still takes a child up to 12 years to learn the phrenology and everything associated with their first language. Adults want to do it within one year—they want to sound fluent. Your accent is not an indication of your fluency, but in terms of accents, the earlier the better… but people can still get rid of accents.
AS: Is this whole age cutoff thing just a myth?
SF: There’s nothing in the brain that happens around age 12. People often learn new languages as adults. If you consider the fact that there really is only one computational process in the brain that allows for human language [like Chomsky says], a child is born being able to learn any language. So if you take some piece of that or believe that, which I happen to, it’s not that big a deal to learn a new language.